Dealing With Rejection

Randy Bezet

So that's the heart of this podcast. I pray that you learn something today, that you grow, and you become better in who you are as a person and as a leader. And I pray today that this podcast blesses you.

Kristin Becnel

Well, welcome to all of those joining us. We're so grateful that you would choose to turn on this podcast wherever you find yourself. My name is Kristin, and as always, I get the privilege of hosting you guys today. And I am joined by the ever wonderful and wise Randy Bezet.

Randy Bezet

Oh wow. I'm feeling pressured of all of sudden.

Kristin Becnel

We're talking about a pretty intense topic today, so I got to really... It's the wisdom that we're going to pull out here.

Randy Bezet

I'm nervous now all of a sudden.

Kristin Becnel

But we also have with us a guest that helps us out regularly, David Murphy. How you doing today?

David Murphy

I'm doing really well. I'm glad you did not add other words there.

Kristin Becnel

I know better.

David Murphy

I'm looking forward to what Randy is going to say on this issue.

Kristin Becnel

No, it's great to be with both of you today. And the topic we're going to be talking about I know is going to probably surprise some of our listeners, but I think they're also going to be really thankful. Because I know what we're going to talk about is something that if you've been in any sort of ministry, especially as a lead pastor, but really any sort of pastor ministry leadership, leading in any way in the church, you have experienced this. And people don't talk about it a lot, but you think about it a lot.

David Murphy

That's right.

Kristin Becnel

And you have to deal with it. And when we don't talk about it, sometimes we deal with it right and sometimes we learn.

David Murphy

That's right.

Randy Bezet

It's true. We all deal with it, but people don't talk about it too much. And where do pastors go to get the help they need in the most difficult situations that you're dealing with as a pastor, as a leader? And so many times you can't... You can find resources on a lot of leadership stuff. Don't misunderstand me. But we all deal with this. It's impossible to go through ministry and not deal with this topic what we're going to deal with today. Because as we say, the joke is, ministry would be great if it weren't for people.

Kristin Becnel

Right. Right.

David Murphy

That's true.

Kristin Becnel

It is. It is so true. But that's what I love. I love, Randy, that this topic came from your heart.

Randy Bezet

Yeah.

Kristin Becnel

And that's what this podcast is all about is to just talk about real life and real ministry and people and how do we just live our best to be like Jesus in whatever role we sit in. I think we're going to do that today.

Randy Bezet

Well, we are. And I think it is from my heart, but it isn't just because I want to talk about. It's because it's what I talk to pastors about a lot times.

David Murphy

Yeah, you're hearing this.

Randy Bezet

If you could get us in a quiet room with no one around and you could have honest conversations, what are the questions that come out? Well, I have those all the time and that's the purpose of this podcast, is I want to take you behind the scenes, if you will, to the green room, if you will, and let's have a conversation. What goes on in those conversations and what are we talking about? It is from my heart because I know how important that is to pastors.

Kristin Becnel

I love it. Well, let's jump into the topic. I'm sure everybody is wondering, what in the world is this topic. I can't turn the channel yet until I know.

David Murphy

You've done well hooking us in.

Kristin Becnel

I know.

Randy Bezet

I'm ready. What are we talking about?

Kristin Becnel

We're going to talk about rejection and hurt. What do we do when people that we love, people that come to our church, they're the sheep, and they leave. They hurt us, they reject us, or maybe they fall into sin and they're in leadership and we've got to help shepherd them. People leave. There's so much to un-package, but at its core is as lead pastors or as ministry leaders, you've got people that you love and that you've given and poured so much into and they sometimes just it feels like spit it in your face and walk away. That's what we're going to dive into today.

Randy Bezet

Yeah, listen, it's a heavy topic and the idea, at least I don't want this to be a depressing, discouraging, kind of all of a sudden a dark cloud rolls in.

David Murphy

Oh no.

Kristin Becnel

Right.

Randy Bezet

But that is the reality. How do we as ministry leaders, how do we deal with this? I really think we'll cover two things today. We'll cover the part of our own heart. How do you make it through this without becoming embittered, which is extremely difficult, because people just like you say, you love people, you work with people, you pour into people, and they go start a church in town or they start backbiting and backstabbing and take other people and leave the church and all that stuff.

You guys are too young. Murphy, you and Kristin, you guys are too young, but the old-

Kristin Becnel

I'm definitely too young.

David Murphy

I'm going to jump into that one. Yup. Yup. Yup.

Randy Bezet

But think of the Old Western movies when people would get shot. It would take them five minutes to die.

David Murphy

Yeah!

Kristin Becnel

Yeah!

Randy Bezet

Boom! And they'd fall and they.

Kristin Becnel

It's like torture.

Randy Bezet

Yeah. Well, people in the church that's how they leave. They don't just leave quickly and easily and quietly. There's just a long agonizing-

Kristin Becnel

What an illustration.

David Murphy

That's why I'm really glad-

Kristin Becnel

Oh man, that is.

David Murphy

I'm really glad you mentioned this because I don't think I ever sat down in a class or I didn't sit with someone and say, "Well, when you feel someone that back stabs you, this is what you do" or "if you have someone in the church that does this, this is what you do." It's not a conversation that I can recall. I think it's through experience and through obviously God's Word and how do I deal with this.

So the fact that you're opening up this conversation, I pray will be an encouragement of the church, especially to the leaders to know how to communicate, at least a little bit of practical help. How do I deal with this right now? So this is good.

Kristin Becnel

All right, well, let's kick it off with a conversation that's just real, because we're human beings.

Randy Bezet

Yes. Let's jump into, yeah.

Kristin Becnel

We sometimes feel and we act on those feelings. Sometimes we could keep our mouths shut.

Randy Bezet

That's my problem.

Kristin Becnel

Let's kick it off with this idea or this topic conversation of when something like what we've kind of set up happens, somebody leaves or they start gossiping or spreading something in the community. I mean you could paint the scenario any way. How do you stop yourself from just reacting to the situation? Let's start there and then we'll see where it goes.

David Murphy

It's so tough. Especially when something has been said that you know is not right.

Randy Bezet

Yeah.

Kristin Becnel

Not true.

David Murphy

It's not true.

Kristin Becnel

Totally false.

David Murphy

And you're brain starts to work over and saying, "Well, was it taken the wrong way? Or did I say something?" And I don't know about you, Randy, mine is I always want to defend myself. "That's not what was said! Or that's not what was meant!"

Kristin Becnel

Sure.

David Murphy

So the first thing you need to do probably is pause. Stop.

Kristin Becnel

That's wisdom.

David Murphy

Stop. Don't react. Reacting is just going to make it worse.

Randy Bezet

Come on. That's great. That is a great tip, but how hard is that?

David Murphy

Very.

Randy Bezet

I mean, really?

Kristin Becnel

Put some tape over your mouth and literally-

David Murphy

Yeah, I-

Randy Bezet

Seriously, okay, somebody comes to you and says, "Did you hear the Johnson's are saying this and this about you? Why did you do that?"

David Murphy

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Randy Bezet

And then, seriously, how would you deal with that, Murphy?

David Murphy

At that time I was in a conversation with someone-

Randy Bezet

They're in the foyer at church.

David Murphy

Yes.

Randy Bezet

And that conversation just happened.

David Murphy

At that moment you really have to stop them and say, "Well, listen, if it's something that the Johnson's are saying, I'm going to have to ask you first of all pray for me in that situation and I'm going to go and deal with it. I will call the Johnson's. I'll connect with the Johnson's." If that's in the foyer. If it's online on social media, that's a tough one because it's now out there in front of the whole world to see. Help me if I'm wrong in this, if you put something in writing, it can just egg it on. I've seen these Twitter feeds.

Randy Bezet

No and then they take excerpts from it or pieces of it and total misrepresent it that way.

David Murphy

And tone is not coming across.

Randy Bezet

No.

David Murphy

Tone can't come across in a social media setting. So in that setting, if it's someone in the church and say "Oh the Johnson's have said something about you," you just say, "Well, listen. Thank you for letting me know. I want to go to the Johnson's. I want to do what Matthew 18 says." Matthew 18 says you have to go and seek understanding. And I know that sounds really holy. At the time everything within you is you want to punch someone.

Randy Bezet

Yes, indeed.

Kristin Becnel

Sure!

David Murphy

I'm not a very good pokerface, so if something has hurt me I know it's going to show on my face. As a leader, as a ministry leader, as a pastor, you just got to, at that moment, maybe you have to walk away from the situation and say, "Well, thank you for letting me know. I appreciate you letting me know this. I will deal with it. I'm going to find out what the Johnson's are really saying." I'm sorry if you're the Johnson's right now listening to us.

Randy Bezet

Yeah.

Kristin Becnel

It's not you, we promise.

Randy Bezet

Maybe it is them. I don't know.

David Murphy

At that moment, that's a good question. You can't react and you can't get into gossip. "What did they say? How did they say it? Why did they say it? Where did they say it?" If you go into all these things at that moment in the foyer, it's going to detract from what you're there to do to: care for people in the church, maybe even lead, maybe even preach the Word. Because I don't know about you, Randy, but sometimes it comes at that time when you're preaching God's Word.

Randy Bezet

When you're getting ready to go up and preach!

David Murphy

It comes at that time and the enemy is trying to detract from what the real cause or the real purpose of our time and that's to teach people to love people, to share people. But don't neglect it. Later on, deal with it. Either go and see the Johnson's. In my case, I remember, there's been many, many cases, but in one case in particular, they were just saying something that was false. They said we hadn't dealt with a situation and that afternoon on the way from church I stopped at the people's house. I literally went to their house. I went, "Hey, how you doing? I didn't see you. Haven't seen you for awhile." And I wanted to deal with the situation right then.

That was one of the situations. Other times I let it go.

Randy Bezet

That's a great point, though. You said so many things I want to dig into.

David Murphy

There's so much, I know. This is a good topic.

Randy Bezet

It's okay so let's start right here with this particular point. You went to the people's house and you went by there to see them. I think it's brilliant. You attack it head on. However, I don't want the attack it head on to come across the wrong way.

David Murphy

No.

Randy Bezet

Because I don't think you should attack.

David Murphy

No.

Randy Bezet

You should go to seek understanding.

David Murphy

Yes.

Randy Bezet

I think in every situation in our church staff person, church member, marriage, everything, you don't go there to attack.

David Murphy

No. I hope I didn't use the word "attack." To seek understanding.

Randy Bezet

No, you didn't use the word "attack," but you said "I went over there."

David Murphy

Yes.

Randy Bezet

I just want the attitude with which you went, the heart.

David Murphy

Yes. Oh, I was praying the whole way and I was questioning my own heart. "Lord, is there something that I could have done better?" You have to self reflect. I was driving over and yes, I kept saying to myself, "Lord, I need to do it your way. Matthew 18, seek understanding." So come in and find out how they're doing. "What's going on? Is there anything that I have done that has offended you? Is there anything that I said that has hurt you?"

And in the three or four, and I'm thinking even in the last few months that this has happened for us. It's always been a positive thing when I come in humbly. You'd use the term "attack." But if you go in and say, "Hey, the Jones said the Johnson's said something about you!" That's never going to work.

Randy Bezet

Oh yeah. All it's going to do is invoke a fight, right?

David Murphy

That's going to cause trouble.

Randy Bezet

You paint somebody in a corner, they're going to swing.

David Murphy

Yeah. So humbly come into the situation and in these situations, for example, the first one, they were visible people in our church and it hurt me because they had got this idea that we hadn't dealt with something and I walked through the steps and I brought the people in and they still didn't come back to the church. And that was so disappointing. On the other one, as I went to meet them and saw them and talked about them, thankfully, I mean they never came back to the church, but every time I saw them in Walmart, we were able to say, "Hi" in a nice way.

It's worse when you're going into a supermarket or whatever it is and they're hiding from you.

Randy Bezet

Yeah.

David Murphy

You know something's not right. And that has happened.

Randy Bezet

Yes, that's right, but you just have to do, as far as it depends on you-

David Murphy

That's right.

Randy Bezet

Live at peace with everyone.

David Murphy

That's right. Romans 12.

Randy Bezet

Mm-hmm (affirmative) You kind of gave a little bit of a formula in there. First of all, is don't immediately react.

David Murphy

That's right.

Randy Bezet

That's true in marriage.

David Murphy

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Kristin Becnel

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Randy Bezet

Sometimes something comes up and you have to say, "Let's talk about this later." Because if you do it then when emotions are high, well, that's never going to create a healthy marriage.

David Murphy

Right.

Randy Bezet

You have to do this with your kids. Don't discipline them when you're angry and that's true in church as well. So someone comes up to you and says something and immediately you could feel the blood. Your face is getting flushed.

David Murphy

Yes.

Randy Bezet

Because you know that you're right. Or that this information is being misrepresented.

David Murphy

Yeah.

Randy Bezet

Or you're being misrepresented in this information and so you want to go ahhh and sometimes you have to go, "Well, we'll talk about this later."

David Murphy

How have you, if you're in the foyer-

Randy Bezet

I have learned how to put on a smile. I know our listeners can't see it, but you just kind of "Thank you so much. How about after service we talk?"

David Murphy

Yeah.

Randy Bezet

You have to come up with a, and ministry leaders, would you right now work on a smile that you can just put on and just smile because it is not the right time.

Kristin Becnel

That's good. There's so much wisdom in that.

Randy Bezet

You have to separate the emotions of it. And the problem is we immediately want to "Well, I didn't intend it to be that way." What happens, how we get in the wrong, is, we just judge other people by their actions and ourselves by our motives.

David Murphy

That's true.

Kristin Becnel

That's good.

David Murphy

That is so true.

Randy Bezet

I didn't mean to. And you go, "Look what they did!" Well, how do you know what their motives were?

David Murphy

Yeah.

Randy Bezet

Which is why you have to go and seek understanding.

David Murphy

That's right. Or sadly, if you do react, you can accuse people very quickly. "Oh no. That's wrong. They're hurting. That's why they said that." And that's not the situation. That may not be the reason. You've got to go find what the root cause is.

Randy Bezet

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

David Murphy

But just before you preach or in a foyer or in a supermarket is not the place to do it.

Kristin Becnel

Or on Facebook.

David Murphy

That social media world-

Kristin Becnel

That used to not be an issue and now that's a whole other-

David Murphy

People are hiding behind-

Kristin Becnel

That's a whole other issue.

David Murphy

It's so sad sometimes and so disheartening when-

Kristin Becnel

You can't seek understanding over social media.

David Murphy

No.

Randy Bezet

By the way, pastors, listen to me. Never respond on social media to comments that are negatively being made.

David Murphy

Yes.

Randy Bezet

I can promise you it's been at least a dozen times where I've had a really incredible long-thought out great response and I was going to blast them with all this great information and theology.

David Murphy

And the Bible says!

Randy Bezet

Oh man, all I had to do was click "send" and I didn't and I promise you-

Kristin Becnel

What do you when-

Randy Bezet

I think it was more just helping me.

David Murphy

Well, I was just going to say that.

Kristin Becnel

No, you see that. Somebody that you know and you read it and you're ready. I mean you're not going to push "send", but you're ready and then you see them at church that weekend and they come up to and "Oh hey, pastor". How do you respond? Do you just pretend like you didn't read it? What do you do?

Randy Bezet

It has happened.

Kristin Becnel

I know it's happened.

Randy Bezet

It just came to my mind with someone that has been around this church for a long time. I've been with them at bedsides when people were dying and I have pastored them. I would say I have been a great pastor to these people and something happened on social media. I don't know how in the world I remember this because I don't normally remember these things. And it was just some blast about something that we did. Of course, I didn't respond. And I literally saw them that weekend at church. Actually, you did. You walked up on me, Kristin.

Kristin Becnel

I'm thinking of the same situation that you are. This is what prompted me to ask this question because you handled it very...you created an opportunity.

Randy Bezet

I did.

Kristin Becnel

For a conversation to happen.

Randy Bezet

So go ahead. From a third party person then, because, in other words, this is raw.

Kristin Becnel

This was not a planned discussion, but yeah.

David Murphy

I'm intrigued here. I don't even know what you're talking about.

Kristin Becnel

What I watched you do was create an opportunity for a healthy conversation to happen because a conversation like that can't happen. A healthy conversation to lead to any type of resolution or clarity can't happen over social media. So you humbly positioned yourself. And I forget what you said, but just "Hey!" And you posed a question of "So what do you think about all that we've been doing?" Something just kind of-

David Murphy

Oh, he opened a door.

Kristin Becnel

He opened a door and then when the response came back, you spoke with love and grace, but also truth.

Randy Bezet

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Kristin Becnel

And gave heart behind this is why we do what we do.

Randy Bezet

It was very short.

Kristin Becnel

It was very short.

Randy Bezet

They heard me out, but isn't it amazing if you just will be patient and wait for the Lord, that he will give a lot of times an open door to do that. And the reason why I think it's wrong on social media for all kinds of reasons, but the most important is biblical. Matthew 18 says we go to the person. Social media is a public forum.

David Murphy

Everybody.

Kristin Becnel

Yep.

Randy Bezet

And that is not the godly way.

David Murphy

No.

Randy Bezet

And people may come to me to go back to your scenario, somebody comes up to you at church. It doesn't matter where they do it. The bottom line is someone comes to you and they go, "Well, the Johnson's said". Two things, well, one is they're using the Johnson's for leverage like "everybody". Or they might say, "Well, everybody is saying".

David Murphy

Oh my goodness. I've heard that a million times.

Randy Bezet

Okay.so when they do that, what should we do? For me, I go, "Well, everybody or the Johnson's or whoever you're talking about, they're not here so how about we just talk about you. What issues do you have?" And they go, "Well, I really don't, but it's them." And I say, "Well, listen, do you want to be blessed by God?" "Oh yeah, Pastor. I love the Lord." "Of course you do, but we are not blessed by God when we step outside of what his Word says."

David Murphy

That's right.

Randy Bezet

"So I promise you this discussion, if it's not you and it's the Johnson's or everybody else, whoever they are, if it is not them, I will not have this discussion with you because I'm stepping outside the confines of what the Word of God blesses and I will not do it. So tell who the everybody else is or the Johnson's, I would love to have a conversation with them." But if they don't, then they're stepping outside of what God blesses and whatever happens to them happens to them. But I'm going to do it God's way.

David Murphy

There's very different relationships in the church. If this is a leader in the church, you have to talk to them. You have to deal with it.

Randy Bezet

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

David Murphy

In your experience, Randy, have most of these differences been theological issues that you've said something from the platform or have most of them been ministerial issues? In other words, we are doing something that may ruffle their feathers a little bit. You've been pastoring for a long time. What would you say mainly most of them are dealing with?

Randy Bezet

Most of them are not theological issues, but let me deal with the theological issues because they do come up.

David Murphy

They do.

Randy Bezet

Okay. I get emails regularly, whatever that is. I don't have it off the top of my head, but I get emails pretty regularly from somebody who has theological questions about what I said. And in most cases, it ends up being the same people regularly. They're correcting my theology in something and I so never...this is how I do it. I don't get into it with them. I go "Thank you so much for your email." And that's what I say. Period. Because I've tried before where I started correcting them and the next thing I know, we've got a 15 email train thread going.

Kristin Becnel

Debate of which one is right.

Randy Bezet

So I'll say, "Thank you for your email." Then if they were to come back and go, "Well, I need to know this for my-," then I tell them, "Have you been through our growth track? Because if you really want to know who we are and what we stand for, if you go through all that, then if you don't agree, let me know." I've said this 10,000 times. "Let me know and if you don't want this to be your church, I'll pastor you to the right place because there are a lot of great churches in our community and you can go there."

Or if they think I'm theologically wrong, I go, "Well, then you should probably take it up with the elders."

David Murphy

Yeah.

Randy Bezet

And then they never do anything with it.

David Murphy

It is because they're trying to either change you or bring their theological point of view into the church setting and they're trying to control or guide what they want.

Randy Bezet

Go start your own church.

David Murphy

Yeah. It's true.

Randy Bezet

Since I'm doing all this wrong, I mean you apparently know exactly what you're doing, so go ahead.

David Murphy

From a theological point of view, you don't enter many discussions. This is who we are. This is what God's called us to do. But then what about the ministerial ones?

Randy Bezet

Okay. So the other ones-

David Murphy

You say it all the time we do things that are different to reach people who are different. You know what I mean? And those of us who have been in the church a long time may see and be ruffled by that. How do you deal with that from a lead pastor's perspective?

Randy Bezet

Meet with them and seek understanding. "Would you just explain to me what's going on? Just help me to understand." Now, if there is several people, like I said earlier, "Well, everybody's saying" and we know that it's the Johnson's and the Smiths and the whoever's, then I have done that before. I'm in a meeting and I've got everybody there. The Smiths are there and the Johnson's are there and we sit and go, "Okay, let's go through this because we are going to live together as family."

Kristin Becnel

Yeah. I love how you set it because I've been in some of these meetings before and you always set it up like that. "We're family and so we're going to talk about this like family. Sometimes family disagrees. Sometimes family gets mad at each other, but family always sticks together. And that's why we're in a room together." That sets the tone.

Randy Bezet

Yeah.

Kristin Becnel

So well.

Randy Bezet

Although a lot of people were raised in homes that are completely dysfunctional. Or let's say they're not completely dysfunctional. Let's say they're not good at handling conflict.

David Murphy

Yeah.

Randy Bezet

So they don't know.

Kristin Becnel

Or they don't handle conflict. They just ignore it.

Randy Bezet

No, they do ignore. They stuff it and then they explode and then the next time they just act like it never happened. Well, healthy relationships make progress because of communication. That's scriptural, right?

David Murphy

Yeah.

Kristin Becnel

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Randy Bezet

So we're going to sit down. We're going to talk about this thing. We're going to be real, but we're going to be family. At the end of the day, we're going to leave here and we're still going to be family. We may not even agree on it, but we are going to talk it out and we do it because we love each other. And we hash it out right there. And it's my job as the pastor to bring wisdom and understanding and healing. To pastor them and lead them to green pastures and still waters in the midst of all of this. And you can't relegate that. You can't delegate that to anyone else. You're the shepherd of the flock and you just have to do it.

David Murphy

I like the way we do it here and the set up, obviously, with your heart, Randy. Even in our growth track, at the start of the first week when you're talking about the church, this may not be your place. And that's okay. And that's why we pray for other churches at our services and things like that. But it's setting up the point that "Listen, this is what the mission that God has called us on." And the mission that God has called us on we do some things and then when we do some things that you may not like. At least you know this is the mission. We're trying to reach people for Jesus Christ and we will do everything but sin to reach people for Jesus Christ.

And you may not like this very event or whatever it is that we're doing, but there's people coming for Jesus Christ and we feel before the Lord that this is something that we must do. I think that communications, I've seen you do this as well. With the people who are bought in, the leadership, the people who are serving, most of the time, that's not an issue. It's usually from the fringes. People that come in and out.

Randy Bezet

Totally.

David Murphy

Isn't it?

Randy Bezet

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

David Murphy

And it's from the fringes that they want to have a voice. "Well, I didn't like the way you did that song" or "I didn't like the way you did that service."

Randy Bezet

The truth of the matter is the fringe people, if you look at the ones that are complaining, it's one of the first things I do when I get an email. I ask my assistant to look them up in our database and tell me have they gone through growth track? Are they giving? Are they serving? And most times, they don't do those three things. I'm not their pastor and this is not their church. They might attend. It's hard to pastor someone who doesn't see you as their pastor. At least you know where they are.

David Murphy

Yeah, so you're saying that then if we know that they are serving, they are giving, they have been here for awhile and they don't like something, that's when you get them into a room. At least-

Randy Bezet

Well, I would do it anyway, but the fact that they aren't doing any of those things, if there is a real issue....there are people involved in every church that have been there a long time and you recognize them and would know their face. But they probably don't give. They haven't been through your growth track or whatever and they aren't serving. Just because they aren't doing those things doesn't mean that you shouldn't meet with them head on if you have these issues. But you have to understand what you're dealing with.

And in those moments, I would even say something. I'd go, "You know Smiths, I think a lot of your misunderstanding here has to do with the fact that you really don't know who we are yet. And you haven't been through growth track. And you guys aren't serving anywhere and if you were to do those things, the heartbeat of this church would really get in you and you might probably see things from a different perspective."

Remember, if people do it, it's because they're hurting and it's a pastoring moment. That's how you have to look at it.

David Murphy

Yeah. Very much so.

Kristin Becnel

That's good. Let's shift the conversation a little bit. We talked a lot about people in the church hurt us and do things. What about when you've got staff members? Because sometimes that hurts even more, even deeper. What are maybe some things that you've learned or you've applied or done over the years? Just maybe some guiding principles how you not let it affect you, but how you still pastor someone through that.

Randy Bezet

Yeah, that's probably one of the most difficult ones for pastors and leaders to deal with because it is. It's so close to home. I've learned some things through walking through these. First, as pastors, as leaders, we have to look in the mirror. It always begins with us. And you have to look in the mirror and say "What could I have done differently here to have recognized this, to have noticed it or addressed it sooner?" We oftentimes want to say, "Well, it's just sin." And yes it is sin, but what can you learn through all of that?

David Murphy

That's good. That's a great start. Humbling yourself.

Kristin Becnel

It's a humble start.

Randy Bezet

I love being the lead person because then you get credit for things you didn't do, but you get to take responsibility for things that you haven't done.

David Murphy

Yes sir!

Randy Bezet

Somebody told me something once, some people that were very close to me, went through a serious struggle and I was hurting and they told me, "Randy, if God was the perfect father and he created the perfect environment, the Garden of Eden, and his children still chose the wrong thing, then don't take the responsibility. What can you learn? But if Adam and Eve chose wrong from a perfect father-" Man, that took a lot of pressure off me.

David Murphy

Yeah.

Randy Bezet

So what do you do? I have been in churches and I've seen it before where somebody messes up and they ship them off to India and you never see them again. And you could do that.

David Murphy

Where did Bob go? I don't know.

Kristin Becnel

Last I heard he was in Africa.

Randy Bezet

You do. You rip the bandaid off and you send them somewhere else. I'm not saying that you, listener, shouldn't handle it that way. But let me just tell you how I've handled it. I think you have to first and foremost decide since maybe they're in leadership, but they are still your sheep. And you have to decide how can I shepherd them through this. But if they're also harmful to the sheep, then you have to separate the goats from the sheep, in essence. In other words, you have to pastor them and say it's a pastor or a leader and you've got to try to help restore them, but you also have to protect the sheep of the church that even maybe they were a part of leadership. And the tension between those two is extremely difficult and it's very blurry.

Kristin Becnel

And it's happening at the same time. You're pastoring and protecting. Sometimes, all at the same time.

David Murphy

Yeah.

Randy Bezet

And you have to do the same thing. It makes it so difficult which is why some people just want to ship them off. Let's separate the two. Let's look at the pastor who's fallen and that has been hurt or is hurting and done some sin. It doesn't matter what it is. It's something that would disqualify them from ministry. Let's put it that way. You have to ask yourself, as their pastor, what is the best scenario for me to help them be restored first to God, second to their family, third and only third, like it may never happen, but I think that it could because the calling is irrevocable, the third is restore back to ministry. And it has to happen in that order. Something is wrong with their relationship with God, which is what led them to sin. It's destroying their family. Ministry, we'll see what happens. We're not even going to talk about that.

In that scenario-

David Murphy

Because if you don't get the first two right, the third one's not-

Kristin Becnel

Can't do that.

Randy Bezet

Right. In those situations, we don't even talk about third step. I want you to get right with God. So what I have done is you have to ask yourself, "Where is the best place geographically for them to be restored?" Because you're pastoring people in the church that perhaps they hurt, but you also have them. So where is the best place for them to be restored? It may not be in your church because the people they hurt are there.

David Murphy

Are still there.

Randy Bezet

And they're there.

David Murphy

Yeah.

Randy Bezet

So you have to decide where is the best place. So that has to do with do you have another pastor in another city or somewhere that you could trust them to that would walk them through this? You have to have that. Based on their situation in life, where's the best location for them to be? Do they have family somewhere that they can go and can get help and the support they need? That's the people that are in leadership and if push comes to shove, then you have to do what's best for the people in the church, even over this pastor and leader. Because they're held to a different standard. You have to protect the people in the church.

So in larger churches, if you're multi-site, you can have things done in different locations and people never see each other.

David Murphy

Sure.

Randy Bezet

But that's the first case scenario. You have to ask where is the best place for this family to be restored. And then you have to then take the people in the church that have been hurt by this and you've got to start having regular conversations. We've provided counseling for them and help for them just to walk through this whole restoration thing in their lives. And that's a long tedious process.

David Murphy

It is.

Randy Bezet

However, to me, I would say the ultimate goal would be when people are like this, if the church can't show how you restore hurting sheep, then where are they going to learn it?

David Murphy

That's right.

Randy Bezet

So my highest goal is always to let this scenario be a trophy of God's grace.

Kristin Becnel

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

David Murphy

Those moments usually, and the thing is, I've seen you walk through this so you're not just talking from theory. I've seen you walk this in practice.

Kristin Becnel

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

David Murphy

The desire to love the person, obviously, it depends. If it's a very visible person in your church, you have to deal with it. If it's one of the leadership, and again, in a multi-campus church where it's further on, the impact might be different. There may be less impact, but still the heart. Restoring to God. You can't think through the next consequences of whatever is going to happen unless that person really wants to be restored back to God.

Randy Bezet

Oh yeah.

David Murphy

And that's the tough part. From your heart, from our heart, from leadership heart.

Randy Bezet

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

David Murphy

Because if they don't want it or they've made their own way...in my case, I remember approaching one. Sadly, it was a worship leader and he was visible and he chose to run away. We had to deal with the family. We had to restore the family, the teams and all that. It's so hard, but those were crisis moments that when we dealt with them in a godly biblical way, it brought so much fruit.

Randy Bezet

Yeah, well, if they don't want help, you just "Okay." I mean, "God bless you. See you later." And there's one half of the equation you don't have to worry about.

David Murphy

Yeah.

Randy Bezet

But if they want help and they want you to pastor them through it and there's three steps: God, family, then ministry. Here's the conversation I have with that pastor, that leader. I go, "Okay, listen, I need open and honest clarity in all of this and you get one shot at it. If I find out you're lying or you don't follow this plan exactly, then I'm done. I'm not saying you can't make mistakes ever again, but I'm telling you right now, I need full disclosure. I need it all."

David Murphy

Yeah. "You need to tell me everything right now."

Randy Bezet

"Because if I find out later one little thing,"

David Murphy

Trust has been broken anyway.

Randy Bezet

"I'm done. I am loyal. I will walk with you forever, but I can't handle distrust." So what I do is I build a team around them. I take two or three pastors and that's the restoration team. The restoration team includes one pastor who's running point, a counselor who can tell you from a clinical standpoint where they are and how they're doing and the third is their spouse, if they're married, has to be a part of the restoration team. And then in this case, I allow the person who's going through restoration and the spouse to each pick a friend somewhere that is their friend that can be their confidante and those five people are the restoration team.

David Murphy

That's good.

Randy Bezet

And they decide through the wisdom of the counselor when this person is ready to move to the next phase of restoration.

David Murphy

Yeah. That's really wise. I actually like what you said about the geography. It depends on the size of your church, obviously. It may not be right there, but for the benefit of that person. The desire is for the benefit of that person. I think a lot of people will, whether you like it or not, whether you know it or not, will view your leadership in those moments. It's not whether you gave a good sermon, although that is good. It's not whether you performed a great event. It's in those moments of crisis. So this is very important information on how do we lead and how do we love relationally in these moments because your ministry will grow or not depending on how you deal with these situations. These are critical, critical moments.

Kristin Becnel

Yeah, this whole topic and this whole time that we spend together, it really is what you just said David. It's the opportunity for us to look like Jesus. It might be the hardest way to do it, but it is a way that as pastors and ministry leaders that we either decide do we believe what Jesus says is true. Redemption and healing and forgiveness and grace. And do we believe that it is bigger than people that are hurting and that hurt us. That fall away, that make mistakes. It puts it to the test and walking that out in grace.

No, what were you going to say?

David Murphy

Just when you were talking there, it just reminded me of Christ. Judas back stabbed him.

Kristin Becnel

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

David Murphy

He knew and in that John 13 passage, Jesus washed his feet.

Randy Bezet

Knowing.

Kristin Becnel

Knowing.

David Murphy

He was in that room that time.

Kristin Becnel

Knowing what was going to happen.

David Murphy

He was still there when Jesus washed his feet and then said, "Go and do likewise." In other words, I'm giving you still the opportunity. Later on in that passage in John 13, Peter said, "I want to be with you always!" He says, "You're going to deny me."

Kristin Becnel

Yeah.

Randy Bezet

But Jesus, to take it a step further, if Judas hadn't of ended his life, perhaps it could be when Mary saw the angel, the Lord would have said to her, go tell the disciples, including Peter and Judas.

Kristin Becnel

That'll make you think.

Randy Bezet

Right?

Kristin Becnel

Yeah. That's the kind of God he is.

Randy Bezet

If he washed his feet knowing, if he would have still been there, he still would have said, "Go after Judas."

David Murphy

But that response of Jesus, but that's a tough one. That's a really tough one.

Kristin Becnel

That's our highest aim, right?

David Murphy

It is. And then I love the one that's in our minds, Randy, because we just came back, but standing at that beach that day when Peter had denied Christ and he went back to fishing. He went back to what he was going to do. Jesus came back and called him back again. "Peter, do you love me? Feed my sheep. Peter, do you love me? Feed my sheep. Peter, do you love-" That restoration was there from God's, from Jesus' heart. The problem happens if the person on the other side doesn't want it.

Randy Bezet

Totally.

David Murphy

That point is hard. But from you, as a leader, do your best to live in peace. Romans 12. There's another passage of Scripture, 2 Corinthians 13, do the best you can to live in peace. God will deal with their heart. God will deal with their circumstance. But when it's your heart pastor, leader, it's a tough one, Randy. It's a tough one and at that point, you just get before the Lord. Get beside a friend. And even like the five things you said, when I get attacked, I need a friend to talk to.

Randy Bezet

Yeah, you do.

David Murphy

I need a friend to be able to say, "Why would they do this?" They hold me accountable. They remind me that I may be listening to lies in my own heart and say, "Dave, that's wrong. That's not right. Get before the Lord. Get before prayer." It feels so simplistic, but it's not. Get before the Lord in prayer. Get to the Word. Read the bible. Humble yourself before the Lord as the Word says and then in due time he-

Randy Bezet

He will lift you up.

David Murphy

He will lift you up.

Kristin Becnel

So good. Well, pastors, thank you all so much for being so honest and open. Those listening, I hope that this helped you. I hope it encouraged you. I hope it gave you some wisdom, some insight and that you finish this feeling a little bit stronger and ready to be like Jesus in these situations.

Randy Bezet

Yeah me, too. This topic, I feel like we could keep going.

Kristin Becnel

And we might have to. We might have to do another episode.

Randy Bezet

Yeah. We'll see. We may have to because there's a long process to this, but to echo what you said, I hope those of you that are listening that this all of a sudden encouraged you, as heavy of a topic as this is, but it empowered and equipped you to know how to move forward in this.

Outro

Thanks for listening to another episode of The Relational Leader podcast. For more resources, visit randybezet.com.